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Final releases of Kohana / Beginning of Ohanzee
  • First of all, we should all take a minute to appreciate the huge effort that @Zeelot3k has given over the last two years, when I effectively abandoned Kohana overnight and @zombor had no time to pick up my slack. My hat is off to you, sir!

    Secondly, a big thanks to all the contributors that kept Kohana moving forward, despite the lack of direction from Kohana as an organization.

    All of the combined effort has resulted in Kohana v3.2.3, the final release of the 3.2 branch, as well as v3.3.2v3.3.2, the final release of the 3.3 branch. Both can be downloaded on the download page.

    Yes, final release means that there will be no more official releases of Kohana, nor will there be an official release of v3.4. The remaining core development team of myself, @zombor, and @zeelot3k have all agreed that Kohana has fallen far behind modern frameworks. We feel that it is better to turn Kohana over the the community and let the future of Kohana be determined by the people that still use it, just as we once determined the future of the framework we used. To this end, I have added a new "Community" team to the Kohana project on Github and granted this team access to all of the repositories that are used for official Kohana modules. This team currently consists of:

    Kohana Community Team

    But the legacy of Kohana is more than just a framework. Kohana also attempted to be a representation of writing well commented and well organized code that had real world purpose. We want to preserve the best of Kohana as a new project, which is called Ohanzee by Kohana.

    The word "kohana" means "swift" in the Souix language. The word "ohanzee" means "shadow".

    The Ohanzee project is attempting to preserve the best modules and libraries in Kohana and repackage them as Composer components. We also want to ensure that these new components are written using PSR2 standards for maximum compatibility with the modern PHP ecosystem. We hope that the community will help us build this new repository of dependency free, PSR compatible, and well documented components.

    The Kohana organization will continue to exist to oversee the Ohanzee project, as a member of the Software Freedom Conservancy. We welcome both individuals and partners to help us preserve the legacy of Kohana.

  • Hello,

    First of all I will like to thank everyone that made Kohana possible.

    Second I am extremely concern about not getting any more updates. We have developed Open Classifieds which is used by more than 15K sites worldwide using Kohana and everyday there's more and more....

    We are failing to thousands of people by letting this go!! what do you suggest us to migrate to another framework?

    I think keeping at least the software development active even if it's not including the latest cool things kid next block have, will be good.

    Not sure how to proceed but I see no other option rather than doing or joining efforts in a fork from this latest version and maintaining it. It's a load of work and really last resort...

  • When applications are architected properly, what web framework you use becomes a detail, not a fundamental requirement. We would suggest that you focus on making your application portable, so that you can move it to a new framework easily. Clean code should be a high priority for anyone, regardless of using a framework.

    But Kohana is not going to be "deleted", and the community has more control now, so maybe it will continue to live. But if it does continue to be developed, it will be solely because of the community.

    And I strongly disagree that this is "failing to [sic] thousands of people" by officially stopping development. The reality is that active development has been slowing down for over two years and Kohana no longer represents best practices in PHP development. By admitting that Kohana can no longer be maintained by the organization, we are being honest and giving the community an opportunity to decide what the future direction should be.

  • I understand shadowhand and I do appreciate the honesty. ;)

    We love Kohana since it's light full featured and works almost everywhere and being portable, we will not drop it at all.

    If community it's going to take care that a great news and I will like to put the resources of our small company to help as much as we can. So how can we do that? who is going to be the responsible or the leader accepting which features or which fixtures should or should not be included?

    thanks fro your prompt reply!!

  • All of the github users that I showed in the list above currently have full developer access to Kohana. I expect these users to be responsible for implementing the choices of the community as a whole. Many of these users are in the same situation as you, with one or more applications built with Kohana.

  • Hi Woody,

    First thanks for the attribution.

    I'm sure, as many others, I'm a bit surprised (not that that should be caracterized as "good" or "bad"), but I'd ask, as the BDFL; why not define a roadmap and try to steer a vision?

    Be it passing the tortch, joining forces with another project with some integration/transition, or at the very least try to keep a structured organization for the project moving forward.

    What I mean is that "passing it into the community" is probably too broad and unreliable. I might want to take things in one direction, another community contributor might want to move in another. There's no proper way to handle a vision if there isn't a balanced set of rules making things move forward.

    This probably means we're more doomed to see things fall into an irregular and unstable maintenance mode, or just a fork for every idea (be it good or bad).

    While I haven't actively participated in the discussion, (not even sure if there was one) publicly announced (mostly because I haven't kept track), but would at least like to see that option. Being a part of a contributors is interesting, it's some recognition as well (thank you), but it still is unclear what (if any) should be the next step.

    I'm pretty sure some have reasons to move on, others might want legacy or current projects to go on, but I'd at least like to see a public discussion on what can be done about it!

    (BTW: You have my e-mail on github)

    Thanks in advance! Daniel

  • @dm I guess I don't see the need to define a roadmap at this point. My own plan for handling this transition at Ushahidi is to slowly refactor away from Kohana, while moving the parts of Kohana that we actually need into Ohanzee components.

    I don't personally see a reason to use Kohana in the future, because there are better routers available (such as Slim), but I do want to continue to use the good parts of Kohana, which should all end up in Ohanzee over the next few months.

  • Absolutely, I can see an understand your situation, but that's exactly the issue, it's a personal roadmap, not one for existing (and maybe less proactive developers) which might require assistance in taking the first few steps in the right direction.

    And I would probably like to see that progress being a community one, where while there will be refactoring of your application's code [which is a personal/company project issue] to handle, the framework itself might have a roadmap to assist in upgrading into a different codebase.

    They will be enforceable steps for existing Kohana applications, but nonetheless steps that a number of developers might need assistance with, that sort of roadmap is comparable to sunsetting a commercial project and open sourcing it with proper documentation so a community can take over.

    Here I believe instead of leaving a disorganized group behind, it might be better to take lead.

    Maybe what I'd ask is that the current core developers (and maybe invite the "Community" group you aggregated, to) join forces in making a discussion and assisting in that move!

    Be that Slim, Laravel, moving to components like Symfony, or any other available option! I'd invite interested parties (core devs, adopters, companies, even code devs from possible "destination" frameworks) to discuss, get a say, define a roadmap, join the challenge for a few months, and maybe some interested companies might join the effort for their benefit as well!

    It'd be a win-win-win for Kohana's core developers and it's legacy, developers that adopted the framework, and the PHP community at large.

  • I don't disagree with any particular point there. This announcement should be the beginning of a discussion, not the end of one. :)

  • Hey @shadowhand,

    First of all, thank you that you showed up and you're talking to us. I second with @thejw23 who said in another thread, this is the info that I would really wanted to hear! I see this post as the first one to paint you as a BDFL who wants to talk and who is really concerned about us.

    Thank you also for releasing 3.2.3. But I believe 3.3.2 release a bit immature. Tests are not passing for some reasons (https://travis-ci.org/kohana/kohana) and historically, Kohana merged previous versions bugfixes (3.2.3 fixes) into the next current release (3.3.2).

    And regarding the "beginning of a discussion", if you don't mind, I will paste in another thread what I have compiled 3 weeks ago: my humble vision for the next version of Kohana, the bridge.

    http://forum.kohanaframework.org/discussion/12517/kohana-3-4-codenamed-bridge

  • @enov You're probably right about 3.3.2... it assumed that 3.2.x fixes were being merged into 3.3.x already, but that seems to not be the case. I will review and address that tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestions for 3.4, I will read that tomorrow as well.

  • Hey guys,

    I just wanted to throw my few cents into this discussion, especially since I've been added as a community contributor (Thank you!).

    Like I'm sure many others are, I still actively develop and maintain an application using the Kohana framework with a company that I contract for. So I can say that I will indeed still be around to help support Kohana as it exists now. I can't say that I will be able to help move the project forward feature wise, but I can certainly try and help maintain it. Personally, I most likely won't be able to move away from the framework due to project budget.

    A big Thank You to the entire core dev team. Using Kohana has been a pleasure over the years, but would agree, there are absolutely better options out there now. It's unfortunate that it has more or less stagnated. I'm confident that as a community we can keep it from rotting though.

    Like @dm is proposing, it would be good to see some direction for the community to follow. I don't have any sort of experience in project leadership so I don't think I'll be able to help in that regard however.

    Thanks guys.

  • If you want to keep KO alive and move forward, you need to promote a leader between the contributors who has a clear, solid roadmap for the whole project.

    This was the same issue for years now, everybody wants to contribute, nobody knows what and how...

    Even though there's redmine, there's github, etc.

    And another thing that if you reach to the point to submit a PR, it will stagnate there forever, because nobody will merge it.

    This is why I think there's a need for a clear hierarchy between the contributors, so everybody knows his job and responsibilities.

  • This is how it should be done, a sample from Symfony2: S2RepoFlow

  • Ohanzee + Slim? Great! Oh, wait a minute, I already use it, since I ported whole Kohana to PSR-0 :D ;) Validation, messages, config, i18n and so on - it all works with Slim with no problem.

  • Well.... I only say one thing.

    Shadowhand, go home, you're drunk. You abandoned fw and now think that we, devs accept your strange idea. You don't understand how to be leader and what is important. Also, I think you don't know what's going on with the community of Kohana.

    About Ohanzee ...no, thank you. With @thejw23 and other devs from Poland we created better tools and we will not promote you new project. So, goodbye and good luck!

  • @Riu where are your better tools? why are you still on the kohana forums if you have better tools that are not kohana?

    ps: your personal attacks are not necessary.

  • @feketegy If you want to keep KO alive and move forward

    I don't have an opinion about that one way or the other. It is up to the community to decide how to proceed with the framework. My focus is on Ohanzee.

  • It's not personal attack. This is fact that for you we don't exist and our opinion is irrelevant. Sad,but true.

  • @Riu that sword cuts both ways, pal.

  • @thejw23, can you share your PSR-0'ed Kohana port on github? That'd be immensely useful.

  • Maybe.

  • What is happening with the hosting of the Kohana websites?

  • Are they going to keep going using the donated funds?

  • @curtis.delicata the Kohana organization remains part of SFC and there are no plans to shut down the website at this time.

  • Great. Thanks for letting me know.

    Our framework uses Kohana so hopefully it all goes well with the community now running it.

  • @feketegy I agree with you and is what I have said at the beginning of conversation, someone needs to be the leader decision maker, like it or not.

    All the others commenting here @riu @curtis @thejw23 @dm , why don't we do vote? I mean I guess some of the community developers would be interested in been the leader, if none we need to find someone.

    I want this to be alive, let's move and do something.

  • Now is the time not for voting, but for community team members to talk private about their plans and future of Kohana. Later a statement to the public community should be posted. And then will be the time for the public community to think what they want to do. But, from my presonal thoughts, project should have strong dev team focused on their common goals, not their individual ideas. And later comes community opinions like "I want this, we want that". Dev team should now decide what next.

  • @thejw23 I agree and that's what I meant, I mean they really need to talk between them and have an agreement and then we will see.

  • I'd like for a next step to be a (couple?) of releases that move Kohana towards another framework/path, I do agree that KO is needing a refactor, but instead of going with rewrite, I'd rather refactor and move towards what's already working out there.

    I'm perfectly open to discussing and seeing what could be the next steps, either here, or a private list if that's more interesting, but definitely go through a discussion first and a vote afterward.

    Who's up for going with a google-groups discussion or something over a week or so (better to have a deadline to vote/decide on something).

    Cheers

  • Hi to everyone!

    I've used Kohana for many years, and currently using it to develop a project. All my best to the community team to continue the good job started by shadowhand and all the others. I don't have much time, but if I can be of any help, let me know!

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